Jacopo R. • I want to see the union of european countries brought further, going beyond a common currency and approaching an integrated and solid continental market. This is a must for years to come. As an "agile and lean thinker" I want to see our values at the basis of this growth. For what concerns me and most of members here, I suppose, the purpose of this group could be to drive this transition within IT market.

I know it could sound a little higher than appropriate here, but I don't feel ashamed to write here that was my first thought as I read Jurgen's post.

Rob W. • I don't know. I actually don't think that the way we are "organized" now is a problem. I like the dispersed way of how the network of networks is communicating. I think it allows for creativity and new initiatives without the need to comply to anything or to think whether some larger entity would allow or approve.

I also think that there's no real need to follow the Americans.

Looking at some really valuable initiatives in the past (the eXtreme Tuesday Club, XPDay London, Benelux, Germany, France, the Agile Open, the Coding Dojo's, Software Craftsmanship movement. Such great initiatives are mostly just a brainwave of some people with a beer, that had the guts to actually do it.

SCRUM NL was a new place where different people met in another timeframe, where they might not have heard of XPNL XPBE or the XPDays. Isn't that great!

I thing that that's what Agile is about. Larger organisations is not (per se).

But if this group is a new place where (maybe new or other) people feel attracted to, than that in it self is a good thing.

Angel M. • Mixed feelings on this one. On one hand, having a closer network of people doing Lean / Agile is really desirable. On the other hand, being on the Internet Era, I think we should stop thinking about continents, countries or borders. If the existing structures (xAlliances) are failing to better coordinate us across europe maybe we should, as members, claim an european structure inside this organizations. Should this group act as an independent think tank inside the Alliance or just go ahead with it's goal of creating a separate, different thing?

Jurgen A. • @Rob: I also love the many different initiatives we see across the continent. I don't think "organized" automatically means "coerced"or "conforming to rules".

If we only decide to use this group to list and fertilize the different groups and initiatives, then that to me is also a form of a (networked) organization.

Jan D. • It would be nice to have an open Agile/Lean calendar to know about those nice initiatives.

Jacopo R. • I think self-awareness is the biggest step we can do towards a more cohesive market. We don't need much more than getting in touch to let something emerge.

So, I agree in listing european groups and initiatives here.

Michal V. • Hi Jurgen,

I will join your group. However I do not feel the need to set up European version of American institutions, e.g. Scrum Alliance and similar.
Here in Czech Republic I am currently doing similar things. I try to provide certification and training center and create community, all based on three legs: Agile – Innovation – Entrepreneurship. Under this Agile umbrella you can find everything: SCRUM, LEAN, Kanban, agile management, six sigma, ....

However, in my book both Innovation and Entrepreneurship are closely related to Agile. I think in Agile world we don‘t challenge obstacles to master processes of Scrum. We challenge obstacles to unlock creative potential of the people and return them its self-confidence. The result should be greater projects, greater products, new companies and social progress. Agile, it is not only about software development. That’s why we have visitors from other industries at community meetings.

I am in touch with agile user groups in neighboring countries. There are two in Poland, I know one in Germany however there is more, one in Austria, one in Slovakia (but not active), one in Hungary. Here in Czech we have had one (Agilni Konsorcium) which collapsed in January and was replaced by two competing organizations, Agilia and Agilni Asociace. This shows, that we in Europe are unable to co-operate together. How many foreign Agilists have ever visited our regular meetings? Some came from Slovakia, if I have had pushed them. And I was only foreigner to visit other countries. The frontiers had been lifted. But there are still borders deep inside of us which prevent us from cross border cooperation.

We face the problems with many explanations of agile. There are piles of self-trainers, consultants or namesurname.com egomaniacs providing scrum or agile training/coaching with an only attempt to sell as many consulting hours as possible. Many of them have no clue about what agile means. And where are the results? How it is possible that company after years of “agile deployment” did not improved anything little? There is lack of leaders, the open minded managers, who lead their companies to somewhere and not just fighting for their chair and associated Audi.

I am skeptical to another group to focus Agile - Lean only. I am missing minimal level of guaranteed quality of trainings, which might Scrum Alliance or another body help to overcome with certification of the courses. I am missing those leaders, which makes me looking for partners from academia to work on them. I am missing the pro-active paradigm in the general society, which was devastated by corporate socialism and which prevent people to be responsible and accountable for their destiny. And I am missing discussions about big picture. And what to do with this, I don’t know.

Best regards,

Michal

Tiago A. • Hi! I liked Angel Medinilla's thought! We could approach the xAlliances and "demand" for a more concrete european (or even worldwide) representation in the board. Scrum and Agile are spread much further than US, and the Alliances should take into account everyone.

A concrete goal could be to set a european representation at the board of these alliances. Other would be to create that european structure of the xAlliances as referred by Angel.

I also do not see the benefits of creating yet another group. I would go to a tight integration between the existing ones, maybe with a more European focus / representation.

Vasco D. • @Michal
You are right about the "snake oil salesmen" that you refer to. I've seen also quite many. But I hope that this group evolves to be a sharing and learning community. That we need and we need it to be local. Our reality is quite different from the reality across the ocean, and reflecting on that is important for our European community.

Maarten V. • I want to start by thanking Jurgen for NOT using Heiniken as the Agile Lean mascot ;-)

As a rulebreaker and changemaker
I expect this group to be a common ground for other rulebreakers and changemakers
where we can discuss and envision what lies beyond
a place we can call home without the fear of becoming an outcast

I belong too many thing and at the same time I don't belong too anything.
Change comes from within not by following some regulated authority.
Find other changemakers and envision a future, even if nobody else is willing too listen.

I don't expect people to agree with me, if you want an easy life there are plenty of certification schemes out there that will support you in doing so.

As a person who loves turning great ideas into reality
I don't expect this group to solely focus on software development
I expect this group too go beyond

Be different, that's what I expect from this group.
Groups come and go, so will this one, meanwhile enjoy the conversation and spread your wings.

ps. for those interested, I love discussing strategy, leadership, culture, product and service management, kick-ass engineering craftsmanship and a better place to raise or kids.

Radu D. • this is not politicians from our country did 10-20 years ago?! :)

get their forces together for a united, focused, european community?! since we are not suppose to do politics here, it's just a simple observation.

bring people together it's great! this european cultural diversity it's seen as a impediment from implementing "canned" solutions (especially developed in united states), but i think that "agile" (us hotdog) and "lean" (japanese sushi) have a great opportunity to expand and grow into diverse but wise european culture.

understanding cultural differences will help evolve practices to better fit in local communities as well in a united europe community. that's pretty bold, right?! :)

Jurgen A. • @Maarten: I love your purpose for this group "common ground for rulebreakers and changemakers" :-)

@Vasco: Indeed, I believe Europe needs a different approach than the US, in terms of conferences, networking, etc. Maybe this group can help us discover how to do better on this small but busy continent.

Petri H. • Thanks Jurgen for driving this. I think there's a need for this.

I'd like to see as high quality conference as the Agile conference (this year: http://agile2011.agilealliance.org/) in Europe, so that I don't have to travel to US. I'm willing to help organize such a conference in Europe. Should we get together to discuss this further in Scan-Agile 2011 (http://www.scan-agile.org/), or at some other European conference?

Jurgen A. • @Petri: Personally I would love to see a big Agile/Lean conference in Europe. Though some would claim that the XP conference already fulfills that role. And some say that Europe is different and a big conference (similar to Agile 2011) wouldn't work here...

Yves H. • I know that AA has tried a few years ago to create a european version of their conference. They stopped their idea. (Check with Rachel Davies for the details.)
For me it is about scaling up or scaling out.
In the states you have 1 big Agile 20xx conference. In Europe you have a lot of small agile conferences . At least one per country. In Benelux we already have multiple ones
Xpdays, Agile Open, Devops, Testing Days, Lean (Ok I know some of these exist in the US also) We have the agile tour that tried to group initiatives.

I personally like smaller conferences over bigger ones.
I'm tired of going to the US to see big names. Actually the best sessions I saw in the last years were from Europeans.

@Jurgen: what would be the benefit of such a huge European conference?

Jurgen A. • @Yves: I understand a big European event is probably not feasible.
But (for me) the benefit would be that I would be able to meet more gurus and "thought leaders" in one place, instead of having to attend multiple conferences.

Vasco D. • @jurgen we already have a Lean conference :) www.less2010.org. the 2011 version will happen in Sweden

Vasco D. • @yves I'm with you. I'd rather have many small and local conferences which allow for much more active and close interaction with the participants. The large conferences are useful as well, but not for me anymore...

Maarten V. • For those interested, there will be a couple of upcoming European Lean Kanban conferences all of them are now in collaboration with LSSC and intended as regional conferences.

I'm part of a separate yahoo group in which we coordinate these events and make sure we share a common goal/vision and so on. The following conferences have been planned for October 2011:

- Lean & Kanban 2011 Central-Europe (Munich)
- Lean & Kanban 2011 UK
- LESS2011 (following LESS2010)
- Lean & Kanban 2011 Benelux (Antwerp, which I'm organizing same as I have done for Lean & Kanban 2010 Europe)

I'll keep you posted when there's something more 'officially' to be announced :-)

Mike H. • Like the idea of having a critical mass of people who are supporting Agile in Europe rather than the fragmented approach we have now. I'm still reminded of the way that Project Management evolved into what we have now and I'm concerned that Agile could go the same way.

I agree with Michal - I'm less concerned about the lack of formal conferences, groups and the like. Agile is meant to be about servant leadership but I feel more and more that the various UK & US "alliances" and "centres" are moving us towards "command & control" for Agile...

...or perhaps that's just my paranoia :-)