Robert B. • One thing is for certain – the older people get the more they lose their visual acuity, manual dexterity and cognitive abilities….so for all you manufacturers out there – let’s give the seniors the most complex thermostats with really small numbers and buttons and put the 10 page manual in #6 font. DUH!

Here’s an novel idea – the next time you give a 24 year graduate engineer a project to design a new consumer product…add really old folks to your focus group because really old folks will be your customer…if not today – tomorrow.

Rant on.

RB

Carl D. C. • Robert,

I thought it was just me..........

In over half of the homes I audit, the programmable thermostat is used to switch from heating mode to cooling mode - nothing else.

Your "add really old people to the focus group" rant is on point - hopefully someone is listening.

Robert B. • LOL...[;@0...its just a conspiracy to mess with your senses (pun intended)!...as Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger has said about the evils of technology, "if you mix raisons and turds - you still get turds".

I've sent the link out to my network - maybe between you and I we can convert that "someone" into "everyone".

Cheers,

RB

Steve E. • How people interact with the thermostat continues to be one of the great mysteries in my life as an HVAC guy. I probably spend more time each year explaining thermostats than I do the intricacies of anything else to do with my trade. .....and I gotta say it......most of the explaining is to the fairer gender. Ladies for the most part, have little comprehension of what a thermostat actually does and even less about what it is connected to. Hence their difficulty.
With the women, the classic issue is "overdialing", as I call it, wherein if the person is too warm, the thermostat is set as low as it will go. If the person is too cold, the thermostat will be turned all the way up. There is no such thing as changing the setting just a degree or two. In building with radiant slab heating, one can only begin to imagine the havoc this can cause.
My son went on a service call to a church toward the end of last winter. The complaint was no heat even though the boiler appeared to be running. Then when they came back the next day the building would be at 80*+. The janitor, a recently hired woman, would come in on Saturday to tidy things up and get things ready for Sunday services. She astutely observed that even though the programmable stat was at the 68* set point and the boiler was running, the building was only 60*. So she did the natural thing. She changed the setpoint to a higher number to....her words...."make the boiler run faster". Given that the boiler was working with a 6,000 sq ft slab, there was a considerable "flywheel" to get up to speed and once it got there it continued to shoot straight past the set point. You can easily imagine the response to an overheated building from this same person upon entering the building on Sunday morning and finding the temp to be 80+ in some cases........you are correct. It was turned down to 45*.

One of my all time favorite places to work was a building owned by the state government here and staffed with about 60 women ranging in age from 30 to 60+. There were 9 zones in the building equipped with T-87's when I started with that account. We progressed to programmable stats and that did not help. Locked thermostat covers produced such an uproar that I am surprised you didn't hear it up in Canada Robert.
Some were hot, some were cold, some were hot and cold, and those of the appropriate age swung wildly from one extreme to another. Interestingly the main complaint was not so much the fact that comfort was not adequate as the fact that they felt they had no control and were forced to "suffer in silence". We solved that problem by locking all thermostats at 67* and supplying the building supervisor with 30 small electric heaters the "cold ones" could put under their desks. Admittedly this is a little off the beaten path of heating nirvana but the super told me he actually had people go home because of discomfort at their work station..

Robert B. • Great story Steve – thanks for sharing it! Perhaps the fairer gender will pipe up and pontificate on whether they espouse the use of sophisticated thermostats. As you and Carl have noted, some (many) people see them as on/off switches or speed controls - talk about Pavlov’s classical conditioning. Having some authority over temperature control whether it’s the ability to operate a thermostat, turn on a fan or open a window definitely plays a role in thermal comfort. Color, product ergonomics and placement play a psychological role as well. It in part, is why comfort is a “condition of mind”.
When it comes to comfort its all fuzzy logic - not binary code – not black or white – not yes or no – its all about the grey.

Steve your solution about setting the baseline and giving the ability to adapt is wonderful.

Thank guys - I love the "stat stories".

Additional reading:


<http://www.healthyheating.com/Thermal_Comfort_Working_Copy/Rohles_ASHRAE_IEQ.htm>

<http://www.healthyheating.com/Thermal.../Thermal-comfort-survey.htm>

<http://www.healthyheating.com/Radiant_heating_designs/basement_floor_heating%20and%20cooling.htm>

Steve E. • I find that building control systems which provide no avenue for "user input" are the ones that we invariably have the most complaints about. I also have to say I have actually witnessed the mere act of turning a "placebo thermostat" up and down, provide relief for the persons who have problems with the building temperature. I am not kidding.

As you have said, comfort is about much more than the temperature of the space. I would also state here that any thermostat requiring more than a single page of instructions is probably more complex than it needs to be in 90% of the cases. Seriously.

Carl D. C. • So true Steve,

I once walked into a home and said WOW it's really warm in here, the homeowner responded "no I just checked the thermostat and it read 72". My meter showed 78 degrees. I think if we could have all thermoststs read 5 degrees high we could save a lot of energy from being wasted, because the homeowner just wants to see the number in the box that they set it at.

You are on your own on the female perspective - I'm not touching that one

Robert B. • Carl, great example...& re: the female perspective ...outside of the obvious physical differences, males and females are identical in how they sense and perceive thermal comfort. The biggest difference is females tend to wear lighter and fewer clothes then males and if I recall correctly, they are more likely than males to express dissatisfaction and consequently do something about the discomfort including voicing their opinion (will have to dig up the research on this...).

Not sure if Dr. Stefano Schiavon is following the thread but his colleague Dr. Ed Arens from the Center for the Built Environment, University of California, Berkeley presented on this topic at one of our last ASHRAE meetings and there are several papers addressing gender in perception of thermal comfort. Will dig those up in the next few days.

I’ve opined on this topic – having the same knowledge, females and children will make (in my opinion) better decisions then adult males as it relates to issues concerning indoor environmental quality.

Steve re: instructions and complexity - bang on!

Here's my take...what is the difference between a bi-metal or electronic thermostat and a non electric/ self contained fully modulating thermostatic radiator valve (TRV)?

* if it has more than one wire it is already more complicated than the TRV.

* if it requires voltage it already uses more power than the TRV.

* if it works with on/off relays it has less control fidelity than the TRV.

* if it only measures air temperature it has less senseability than the TRV.

* if it has tiny buttons it will be difficult to use if the operator has arthritis or other physical disabilities more so than the TRV

* if it has small numbers and tiny text it will be difficult to use by those who are far sighted, have cataracts or macular degeneration or other age related optical challenges.

* if the literature has more than one page and requires extensive explanation those with reduced cognitive abilities or those who become easily become frustrated will not complete the set-up or will operate the control improperly.

There’s a lot to be said about the TRV and its door knob simplicity and 1/4 page instruction manual.

Turn to the left for more heat; turn to the right for less heat. Turn to the snow flake for away on holidays freeze protection.

Simple is hard to achieve - thats why less people do it.

The heat/cool versions are a little more complicated and take a ½ page to explain the operation [;@).

For those in the forced air camp - a TRV is meaningless...oh well.

Robert B. • Here's more fuel for the fire (pun intended)
<http://images.businessweek.com/ss/05/06/idea2005/source/4.htm>
<http://www.healthyheating.com/Human_Factors/Tower_of_Babble.htm>
<http://www.healthyheating.com/Human_Factors/Human_Factors3.htm>

Robert B. • Here are four resources on gender differences and thermal sensitivity (forgive me for not reformatting the citations)

Karjalainen, S. 2007, Gender differences in thermal comfort and use of thermostats in everyday thermal environments, Building and Environment, Vol. 42, No. 4, pp. 1594-1603. <http://dx.doi.org/doi:10.1016/j.buildenv.2006.01.009>

Erlandson, T.M., Cena, K., de Dear, R., Gender differences and non-thermal factors in thermal comfort of office occupants in a hot-arid climate, Elsevier Ergonomics Book Series, Volume 3, 2005, Pages 263-268 <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1572347X05800436>

Quantitative sensory testing in the trigeminal region: site and gender differences. Matos R, Wang K, Jensen JD, Jensen T, Neuman B, Svensson P, Arendt-Nielsen L., J Orofac Pain. 2011 Spring;25(2):161-9.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21528123>

Reference values for quantitative sensory testing in children and adolescents: developmental and gender differences of somatosensory perception. Blankenburg M, Boekens H, Hechler T, Maier C, Krumova E, Scherens A, Magerl W, Aksu F, Zernikow B., Pain. 2010 Apr;149(1):76-88. Epub 2010 Feb 6.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed>

Steve E. • RE: TRV's........ I have often thought that the epitome of comfort control would be to have a device like a TRV, located in the conditioned space, that directly controls a modulating burner capable of 0%-100% firing rate. This burner could drive whatever type of heat emitter system it was connected to, be that hydronic or burned air in nature.

PS: Do you realize that the word "hydronic" is so far removed from the main stream vocabulary that it pops up on my spell checker? The wet heat industry has some serious PR challenges in front of it. :)

Mark E. • Life with thermostats is interesting to say the least. My own mother was famous for cranking the stat to 90 degrees F, and when I tried to explain its ON vs OFF operation to her, she just smiled and told me she FELT better by pressing hard on the accelerator... How is one to argue with THAT mentality.

Regarding placebo stats, I call them secretary stats, for obvious reasons, and have also witnessed them walk into an office, sweater intact, turn up the secretary stat, and rip their sweater off, and say AHHhhhh. Funny the power of suggestive actions...

About 10 years ago, the company I was working for did the installation of hydronic baseboard heat in 100 condominiums. The developers wanted their systems to be efficient and comfortable, but couldn't afford large surface radiant (floors, ceilings, walls) emitters. We chose the then "state of the art" heat sources, with ODR capabilities, and we installed NETRV's on the baseboards.

We did our work during the Summer, so when fall and cool weather hit, the phone started ringing off the wall from the residents of the building complaining that their heating systems were not working like they did in the apartment complex they USE to live in... Ergo, need for a community (this was a literal "commune" community) meeting to explain the operation of the TRV's and the system as a whole. After about three of these meetings, the effort finally paid off.

We had to completely re-educate the occupants to the "Comfort Number" systems used on NETRV's. Having been raised on the fahrenheit dial setting systems, it was nothing less than difficult to explain to these people that they just needed to find a "number" on the knob that met their needs, and to set it and forget it. The "conservation" effort was being performed at the point of generation. These homes were so tight, that the amount of energy lost over night was nil, hence no need to perform a set back.

After the third meeting with these folks, it finally sunk in, and the complaints fell to zero.

My home up here in the mountains has the ultimate control logic. It is called ENV, and it is produce by the good folks at Climate Automation Systems. I originally installed NETRV's on the system, and was letting my mod con boiler to do the majority of the control, but kept seeing significant overshoot on the boilers part due to the lack of feed back from the NETRV's. I left the TRVs intact, and installed the solid state ENV control, and my "system" now has the ability to suppress supply water temperatures based on indoor feed back (solar gain issues), and get this, it has the ability to adjust and compensate supply water temperatures based on the local weather forecast. In other words, if , thru its outdoor reset program, it has determined that there will be a significant drop or rise in outside temperature, it adds or subtracts temperature to the algorithms used to determine ODR curves. It can also predict snowfall, and can put a snowmelt system into "Idle" conditions in anticipation of fast moving snowfall. If it is a fast moving wet Spring snow storm, the end user can write their own "Macro" that will ignore the snowfall for a predetermined period of time, then revert back to normal operation.

The system can use any regular thermostat, or not, or can simply use 10K sensors, which are buried and can be set up to send emails for ANY condition that the programmer wants. I will know that there is a problem with the system before my customer does, and can call them or email them to schedule a service call before it becomes crisis management.

It is not "perfect" yet, but with the ability to write ANY control sequence that mankind can think up, it comes close to the holy grail of comfort control and energy efficiency.

Now, if I can just write a program to educate contractors and occupants about the importance of MRT, along with IAQ....

ME

Robert B. • Steve, re: TRV's/boiler control - "epitome of comfort control"

Not that farfetched…back in 1948 Shoemaker describes his heat/cool radiant system using non electric weather compensators/SPST switch and Danfoss makes a heat/cool changeover TRV; and as we all know thermostatic modulating gas valves have been available for many decades. A non-electric weather compensated fluid and space temperature system would be possible – just imagine the elegance of such simplicity in a high performance building...we'll call it "Easy Enviornments by Ebels"

See Shoemaker (1948)
<http://www.healthyheating.com/photogallery/19-Radiant-Heating-Cooling.png>
See Danfoss heat/cool TRV <http://www.heating.danfoss.com/xxTypex/13015_MNU17378974_SIT54.html>

re: "PR challenges"
Yep…(copy and paste this Google search string: +“CIPH” +“Beautiful Heat Campaign”)

How bad is it…well next time you’re out for dinner ask the waiter or waitress if they know what hydronics is (80% ask for clarification – you mean hydroponics?)…then ask them if they know the brand name of their furnace or boiler in their residence (85% don’t)…then ask them if they have a tractor…(98% don’t) then ask them if they know the name of a famous tractor brand (100% always John Deere)…then ask why is it they don’t own a tractor but can name a brand (some can name two or three) and yet can’t name the brand of their own furnace or boiler.

HVAC in general has bad branding, bad ergonomics and industrial design and an inconsequential existence in the mind of the consumer – and of all HVAC categories, hydronics has the toughest challenge of all even though it has the greatest potential to integrate all forms of renewable energy.

Definition - Ergonomics (or human factors) is the scientific discipline concerned with the understanding of interactions among humans and other elements of a system, and the profession that applies theory, principles, data, and other methods to design in order to optimize human well-being and overall system performance.
Source: International Ergonomics Association < www.iea.cc/>

Definition - Industrial design is the profession that determines the form of a manufactured product, shaping it to fit the people who use it and the industrial processes that produce it. Industrial Designers work to make our lives more comfortable, pleasurable and efficient…they give a product that distinctive elegance that makes us want it.
Source: Industrial Designers Society of America <www.idsa.org/>

Robert B. • Mark: re: "cranking the stat"…Thanks for that - another good example of, “State of Mind”…or in your case, “State of Mom”.

re: placebo stats…yes, in one of my classes I had an engineer who was in charge of the production lines at a major auto manufacturer and was tasked with solving a persistent thermal comfort complaint – yes you guessed it – with “placebo stats” the “friendly faux fahrenheit”. [incidently these were always the "round" thermostats...never a programmable version - don't you know "faux" should never be complicated...]

re: "Comfort Number"…yes and isn’t it interesting that when they sit in their automobile they have no problem adjusting the heater based on a color coded range…Pavlof strikes again…

re: "no need to perform a setback"…exactly…buildings can solve virtually all thermal problems…insulation, caulking and good windows – they need no food (fuel or power) or therapy (maintenance). Also I wonder how many people consider the moisture potential when set back is used…safe to say - dew point is the last thing on peoples mind with setback thermostats…but the potential exists particular in cold susceptible rooms with higher than norm humidity...remote bathrooms, closets, laundry rooms etc…

re: "ENV"…Frank Bassett & Co. yes…see page 4, upper right hand side of their brochure: <http://www.climateautomationsystems.com/ENvBrochure.pdf>

re: close…holy grail …yes as are other systems such as Uponors Climate Control line -but here’s the caveat - in the right hands...(to remain fair other partial and full scale integrated control system are available from Honeywell, tekmar, TA, TACO et al. I’m sure we could build a nice list of brand names!)

My thoughts on this “string” is the music and controls analogy - it’s not the instrument that makes the musician but the musician who makes the instrument….all of us control freaks (sorry control folks) understand that concept and we get most folks are not musicians or control freaks – they’re the bus driver, baker, banker, school teacher etc…and the furthest thing from their mind is a relationship with their thermostats...golf clubs, fishing rods, guitars, piano's, scuba gear - yes…thermostats – not so much.

Re: "educate contractors and occupants about the importance of MRT, along with IAQ..."

AMEN to that!

Lawrence D. • The solution is simple; turn control of all thermostats over to the government. After all they know what is best for us.... or,

return to a simple bi-metallic thermostat, but add a touch screen for playing video games and surfing the net to distract people from messing with it.

Robert B. • Too funny - let's start a new website called www.thermostat-pong.com, Online thermostat therapy for couples in comfort counseling!

Mark E. • Ro,

In all fairness, there are a PLETHORA of great companies out there revolutionizing PC based energy management systems, and we've not even spoken about all of the PLC manufacturers who have been out there doing this since the inception of the volt. And as you said, "In the right hands". In the wrong hands, people are uncomfortable and dissatisfied, then EMS gets a bad name.

I worked on two different non profit organization projects this summer (for FREE) where the perfectly new and good EMS had been disabled by different service organizations, resulting in major complaints and high utility bills. In both cases, it was a simple matter of bringing the manufacturers rep back in to educate the operators and get things back on track. One of them realized a 30% reduction in energy consumption, and a 100% reduction complain from building occupants. The other building saw a slight increase in energy consumption (normal because of cooling systems being turned off) but a 100% reduction in occupant complaints.

As for Frank and company, in the interest of full disclosure, I do sit on their advisory board, along with other (nameless, but well known) people, and am giving them the benefit of my years of experience and open mindedness. To the best of my knowledge, theirs is the only logic on the market with active weather interface, and other key features. That may change soon, but they were the first innovators in that area.

I got involved because I wanted to find a control logic with ultimate flexibility so I can use it on my radiant windows. New territory that no one seems to have had a decent/reasonable off shelf control logic available for.

I don't usually openly endorse products, but this one is unique and worthy of mention. Sorry if I offended any of the other manufacturers you mentioned. I am fairly familiar with most of those on the market that you mentioned. What concerns me, is that with ANY of these products, if improperly programmed, designed and installed, they can be a NIGHTMARE. Probably a need for certification of some sort to avoid these potential issues. More work for us edumacators. :-)

Conservation without comfort will result in the conservation effort being overridden.

Thanks for the forum and opportunity and the sharing of your wealth of knowledge.

ME

Robert B. • Re: “EMS”…yep.

re: “EMS had been disabled”…now there’s a research project for one Mr. Mark Eatherton…travel the continent on behalf of industry (paid of course) and do a survey of systems where equipment has been disabled, never commissioned or operated incorrectly – I wonder what the energy penalty has been over all these years and what the penalty will be if these system remain intact? Let me know when you publish your results.

Re: “a 100% reduction in occupant complaints”…I’d speculate the changes improved productivity and reduced absenteeism which more than paid for the slight increase in operational costs.

re; “active weather interface”…yep – btw, if you’ve not done so - get Frank to share his stories of the flooding in Nashville and all the ruined instruments and memorabilia…

re: “endorse products” …no apologies necessary and everyone knows who you are and none would be offended…if I were running a control company I’d have you on my board too!

re: “Conservation without comfort” – yep & only the lawyers would win in war of conservation vs comfort. More money would be spent on legal fees then fixing the buildings and the ensuing printed documentation would kill an entire forest.

re: “Thanks for the forum…”...and thank you for contributing your most valuable time and knowledge – everybody wins when you and our other colleagues show up.

Cheers,

RB

BTW,,,the Carlson-Holohan Industry Award of Excellence is coming up in 2012 and we need to start thinking about the next inductee. I’ll email you and the other past recipients off line to discuss the list of nominees and logistics.

Lawrence D. • I wish I could get a grant to study how much more energy it takes to make a programmable thermostat versus a simple bi-metallic one. You would need to figure in all the extra engineers, employees, manufacturing processes, facilities, tooling fabrication, packaging, printing, etc., etc.... not to mention the additional hours required for installation, testing equipment, training, service calls. Of course, since most are made overseas, let's not forget the shipping energy used.

Now apply that same study to condensing boilers and high efficiency furnaces, heat pumps and the like. A condensing boiler costs three times what the conventional cast iron cost. Why? All the technology stuffed into it, and that uses energy to make.

I don't believe that energy savings is really at the core of most of the energy saving technology we develop. If we were really serious, we would be building smaller, tighter houses and driving small, whimpy cars. I think it is mostly about making us feel better about the enormous amount of energy we use with all our excesses.

In 1947, the year I was born, the average house was around 800 sq. ft. Today, it is around 2,500 sq. ft. The average family used far less energy than we use today and lived happy, successful lives. Imagine how much energy would be saved if we just lived smaller and built better.

Check out this site for someone who is really saving energy.

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

OK, I'll admit it. I like my moderately spacious house and comfortable living, and I am willing to sacrifice some energy to get it. The multiple energy savings gadgets I have are primarily for my amusement.

Sort of nice to have a perspective from this end of life.