Hi Lorna,

Personally, I feel that SEO and SEM should be married -- or at least dating. We manage both SEO and SEM campaigns for a variety of clients...

The main benefit is the ROI data that is quickly provided with PPC campaigns. Once keywords are targeted and ads are running, keyword ROI data can be gathered within a reasonable amount of time. This data will then better inform your long-term SEO strategy.

Frankly, I tend to guide SEO clients into SEM first to ensure that the time and resources spent on SEO are worthwhile. Otherwise, the SEO efforts may not result in decent conversions -- assuming that this is the #1 priority (as opposed to brand exposure and saturation, for example).

Conversely, the major disadvantage of separating the two is the loss of this data. If SEO and SEM are separated, keyword conversion data would be the most important to be shared between agencies...

Cheers,
John

posted July 7, 2008

Lorna,

I think any integration (marriage) of SEO and SEM is essential to a productive search program. We all know that SEO takes time to build and become effective, while SEM is that quick fix, give yourself a B12 shot to get yourself going.

In my previous lives in both building from scratch and rebuilding these type of programs, I have laid out an integrated strategy that allows me to use SEM to identify the top performing keywords, that provides the revenue I need to hit my goals and keeps my competitors in check. As I built this out, I used what I was learning to strengthen my SEO strategy. I tweaked and tweaked until I saw solid results. At that point I was able to be more targeted with my SEM dollars and challenge my competitors a bit more, because I knew I could leverage my SEO positions to cover more ground.

I think if you separate these two out, you find that you'll spend more on SEM and be less effective with your SEO effort. Unless you have two agencies that are great communicators - haven't seen that in my lifetime - then I'd recommend finding one agency that understands how to leverage the power of both to deliver the most effective program.

There is a great slide presentation that gives some stats on improved clicks and conversions . . . find it at:

http://www.slideshare.net/EmergenceMedia/integrating-seo-ppc-search-marketing/

posted July 7, 2008

The optimal scenario is to always run paid and organic search together as the one feeds off the other (and vice versa). While the majority of answers thus far recognize the value of using intelligence obtained from paid search to drive organic efforts, I haven't seen much on the impact on the searcher.

iCrossing released a report last year (link below) that delves into the impact on traffic and conversion rates of running organic and paid programs together versus separately. It explores the relationship between increased conversion rates and combining natural and paid efforts under a single umbrella of targeted keywords. The analysis demonstrates that online performance is dramatically improved when paid search campaigns target naturally high-ranking keywords. And we’re not talking drops in the bucket – integrating paid and natural search campaigns yield significant results as seen below.

An integrated campaign using naturally high-ranking keywords would lead to enhanced presence on the results page, understandably leading to increased click-through rate. But why would such a strategy influence decisions made after the initial click?

It’s because search has evolved to become so much more than just finding the right information. It’s about starting a conversation – and first impressions matter. Traditional campaigns spread across tv, radio, and print perform better than one-off efforts by continuously reinforcing the brand’s message, leading to longer lasting customer experiences. The same applies to search. Integrated campaigns lead to enhanced presence, helping position advertisers as trusted authorities relevant to the user’s need. This trust lives on after the initial click and contributes to improved performance of on-site conversion strategies. By dominating both sets of search results, advertisers communicate directly with their customers without the background noise of their competitors.

A holistic search marketing strategy will drive additional conversions and strengthen a site’s presence in search. It’s about synergy, about aligning paid and natural efforts to maximize return on investment. Start by analyzing natural rankings of keywords used in paid campaigns. Poorly ranking keywords for successful paid campaigns hold tremendous opportunity in terms of increased search presence. Work towards making each paid landing page double as a topical authority in natural search through onsite optimization. Continuously monitor results and adjust content, site structure, and other on page elements until rankings begin to rise.

Links:

• http://www.icrossing.com/request/?report8=checked

posted July 7, 2008

SEO and SEM might - to the Marketing Manager - seem like 2 different marketing tools, the former free and the latter paid, but the astute Marketing Manager will be better off knowing how powerful these 2 can be independantly and lethal when they get together.

To answer the question, I strongly believe that both these specialities must rest under one Manager/Department because of the following reasons:

1. It helps in optimizing SEM spends. When these two specialists work in silos, they are not exposed to the strengths SEO brings to the party and might invest in efforts and money optimizing keywords for SEM that otherwise do not require the heavy-lifting.
2. Traffic sourced thru SEO is almost like getting people to stumble upon you, so a strong SEO property would have mastered the art of getting the right kind of people AND getting them to do what the site is designed to do. Such a learning can be effectively implemented for optimizing SEM landing pages, click-thrus and process completions.
3. User behavior and patterns are rich learnings that SEO provides and SEM stands to gain from this.
4. SEO operates in a high clutter environment (certainly higher clutter than SEM) and it takes a lot to get the right keyword combinations to attract relevant visits. SEM is an easier way of grabbing users' attention. The skills required for the former can easily be rubbed off on the latter.

I run an online yellow pages business that uniquely (now, this is strange!):
- relies on Google for SEO visits
- yet competes with Google's Local for page-rank and position
- spends a truckload of money on Google (SEM)

Despite this, we are the leaders in online local search in India and beat every other player black-and-blue.

We were tempted to seperate the SEO and SEM functions, but we decided to keep them 'married' because of the conventional benefits. And believe me, it has paid off, and continue to pay off.

posted July 7, 2008

Hi Lorna,

I used to work on PPC for years and just started learning SEO, I agreed that SEO should merge with PPC depending on the nature of business:

- SEO is a long term process, actually you can't see the effect of SEO within few weeks. So if you have just established a new business and wanna develop your reputation in this industry, SEO is your best choice. For PPC, you can reduce the time spent with money. Since you can reach your potential customers with your targeted keywords, the effect is more instant and more traffic can be driven within short period of time. So the best practice I think is to use PPC and SEO at the same time: PPC for early stage to drive enough traffic and SEO to optimize your site and improve ranking to attract your right customers.

- Generic / head keywords are usually competitive for certain business, the bids are very high and easy to use up your daily cap of your PPC within a short period. SEO is an alternative to target those keywords with lower costs. (mmm.... Yahoo! and Google may disagree, since they may loss a lot of money if nobody buy generic keywords, but actually this is good for advertisers since they can spend their money efficiently) Therefore, SEO and PPC should work together to identify long tail and generic keywords so they can understand their campaign objectives and spend client/company's money efficiently.

They are more reasons to learn about the marriage of PPC and SEO, if you are interested, just feel free to send a message to me and we can discuss in detail.

Kevin

posted July 8, 2008

Hi Lorna

I think they should at the very least collaborate with data. These are the reasons:

-PPC data can be good keyword research data for SEO
-Some keywords will be worth excluding from your SEO campaign if PPC is found to be more cost effective. Remember that SEO is low cost but not free.
-You can answer the perennial question of whether you should still aim for high positions in PPC for a phrase that has good SEO or if you can reduce the rank of the PPC phrase with minimum negative impact
-You can use PPC campaigns to fast track lessons on what landing pages and copy are best for conversions and use these to inform SEO campaign

If they are handled separately by different agencies, the SEO team/agency should still have a login to PPC data (some trust involved here). But you should also have a monthly program of R&D to test some of the above concepts.

posted July 8, 2008

I've put together a quick Org Chart of Marketing and how the pieces fit together. You'll find it at http://i34.tinypic.com/2qjahzk.jpg.

Obviously, in any organization, all teams have to work in close harmony in an integrated fashion, even if the job functions differ widely. At least theoretically :)

The real answer to your question depends upon available resources/ budget/ scale/ timeline targets and other similar constraints/ business objectives.

In my chart you could integrate all the blue boxes and alternately integrate 2 boxes either vertically or horizontally. Or you could even split the bulleted box by job function and get more boxes.

If SEO and PPC are being handled by two separate agencies. You must clearly define your expected outcome, key deliverables, time frames and the metrics (KPIs) that will be used to determine that. They have to work towards a single goal as defined by you.

They will need to share (at the minimum) the keyword related data. Everything in the SEM universe seems to revolve around keywords whether the use is explicit or tacit/ semantic. What keywords to use, which are performing, which are not and which ones are converting best towards the desired outcome with the maximum ROI.

If there was something I could not state clearly, feel free to drop me a line.

PS - I am an Open Networker and would welcome all of you reading this to directly connect with me at LinkedIn. Obviously we share the same interests.

Links:

• http://i34.tinypic.com/2qjahzk.jpg

posted July 9, 2008

Hi Lorna,

I briefly read through the answers and I don't think one very key point has been expressed.

Search Engine Marketing (SEM) = Search Engine Optimisation (SEO) + Pay Per Click (PPC) or Pay Per Action (PPA).

With that in mind, SEO is a subset of search engine marketing and should be treated as a marketing expense and be managed by marketing. Not so easy because most SEO related changes have to go through an IT team to implement.

The basic building blocks of SEO should be included in every website design and are very closely aligned with accessibility. If the site has the basic building blocks in place, then other SEO efforts can be incorporated and effective.

SEO and Pay Per Click are both the process of identifying qualified prospects and driving those qualified prospects to your website and then using the content on the landing page to convince the prospect to perform a task (convert). Since the main goal is similar and the enablers for both are:
• keyword research to find search traffic
• keyword research to identify opportunities
• web analytics to test and refine
• identify if landing pages are needed
• good content authoring (writing for the web) for new or existing landing pages
• good ad copy in PPC campaigns or on page

I might not have made my point about the overlap in the functions needed to perform well in both arenas but it is very much a Marketing funded and overseen process and whether using an external agency or internal team of web analysts/strategists, it requires the same person or closely connected team working on the project. Otherwise you are duplicating processes and time.

Cheers,

Marcus

Links:

• http://www.intellectiveweb.com

posted July 9, 2008

Hi Lorna - SEO and SEM should ALWAYS be managed together for 2 primary reasons:

1) Adwords provides real time keyword data that's invaluable to a business. Starting with exact keyphrase matching [your keyword], you're able to get actually search volume data for that phrase. This is invaluable because you can test a lot of different keyphrase variations to see which are more productive for your business.

2) As the data builds, you are able to see which phrases are actually generating conversions for your business. These are phrases that you want to optimize naturally for your website (SEO).

As this iteration process unfolds, and your website naturally is hitting the top 10 search results in Google (and all other search engines), you can then ween your Adwords campaign off that phrase and then begin the process all over again with other keyword phrases (products, services, etc...)

The point is that when Adwords is used in the perspective of keyword research, there is no more valuable source that will tell you which keyword phrases are most profitable for your business. And as these phrases are discovered, it only makes since that you optimize your website naturally for the same keyword phrases.

One department (or person) managing this is valuable because of the premise that 80% of people turn to the natural search results first > and 20% turn to the sponsored listings (Adwords). This means it is exponentially more valuable to achieve front page rankings naturally.

Not to mention that when your website hits the front page of Google for a particular keyphrase, you are probably on the front page of all other search engines as well (Yahoo, MSN, Ask, etc...)

posted July 10, 2008

Not that this differs from what most people have written here, but: yes, definitely!!!

Even if you don't have the same person doing both (because of time constraints, maybe) they should be working together closely. The underpinning of both of their work is the same-- the keyword list. And as most people here have noted, there are real and important data flows between each piece of business. And because I'm not sure I've seen this spelled out specifically I'll point out two areas where we share data:

1) TESTING: It's so quick and easy to test in PPC, and that data can influence meta descriptions and entry page content

2) ROI MAXIMIZATION: there are some words that are so competitive that the ROI in PPC just isn't there. If these words can be particularly targeted with SEO then the company can gain traffic with an overall lower ROI

posted July 11, 2008

SEO and SEM tend to flow pretty quickly. Once the various accounts are up and running, you can well expect a fire hose of data coming at you. It's vital that the SEO and SEM people can get the data quickly so that they can make intelligent changes to the various program accounts. New products, seasons, fads/tastes change quickly - keep the data flowing fast and free to the folks who can best use it.

As well, the SEO & SEM people tend to be pretty smart; they live for new ideas and new information. Keep them in the same room, preferably across the desk from one another to encourage their intellectual curiosity for your businesses' benefit.

posted July 7, 2008

Hi,
In my precedent position I managed SEO and SEM. I feel these activities can be married. In fact for the board the objectives are linked : increase visibility or sales :-)
These activities in fact are complementary, for the words you are not so good, you buy these words.
For my part I made a process in place to control a new word visibility. From SEM to SEO in less than 6 weeks.

posted July 7, 2008

SEO and SEM staff / vendors should be managed in separate Departments / Teams subordinated to the same Group.

Separation of SEO & SEM – since their staff's inclination and qualifications are strongly different .

Integration – since they share the same target on the very practical level of it: Making a website visible and popular amongst its target market.

posted July 8, 2008

Hi Fiona,

definitely they should work in the same dept, considering that companies need both the tools to have a 100% visibility on the search engines.

However, please do not mix the professional figures... you should have SEO experts with SEM knowledges and viceversa, but not a SE (seach engine) general expert. Both tools required a very specific set of skills that should not be generalised.

posted July 8, 2008

Organic and paid search are two sides of the same coin. They should not only be handled by the same agency, they should be overseen by the same person on a client by client base to ensure a comprehensive strategy and efficient implementation.

posted July 8, 2008

Hi Lorna,
I believe that both SEO and SEM should be working together. Typically I do SEM with a client first to build visibility and then transition into a SEO capacity.

It can work the other way around too, of how keyword searched from a traffic report per se, can determine and influence what keywords go under PPC management and what pages need to be built up organically. Although now with quality scores for landing pages, one can definatley work in conjunction with the other.

posted July 9, 2008

posted July 9, 2008

Lorna
They should provide relevant data to another but should be in separate divisions.
The mission statement (formal summary of the aims and goals of a group in or within an organization) for each of those divisions is different and unique as well as the measurable.
In eCommerce Partners the mission statement of the SEO division is “Driving Quality Organic Traffic” while the goal (and measurable) in the SEM is totally different. SEM in our case falls under the Marketing umbrella. BTW it took us a while to recognize that it should be like that.

Links:

• http://www.eCommercePartners.net

posted July 9, 2008

Hi Lorna, glad you are making progress.
Are you getting any response on your emails?

Anyway, SEO and SEM are VERY tightly integrated.

For example, you develop a keyword list and run in with PPC for a few weeks, picks the winners and populate the site with the winners.

If you split SEO and SEM you must ensure that both are utilizing the highest converting keywords.

posted July 12, 2008