Hey Gayatri!
How are you doing?
Well yes i think on a broader perspective that's seen in many other fields too. but i agree it's probably more in SEO Industry.

Most of the folks who indulge in this do not see the big picture, for them what matters when do this is
1.) A "better" compensation
2.) promotion (eagerness to get to next level),
3.) Brand leverage: so they can leverage the company brand to the most!

But nevertheless they all don't see/understand the fruits of being patient and being a SME in some vertical or niche!

My 2 cents

Anil

posted October 13, 2008

Hi Gayatri,
You have raised some very pertinent questions, which obviously spring out of a sense of frustration. Been-there-done-that, so I completely identify with your thoughts. My specific thoughts on the subject are as under:
1. At the outset, I am not sure if this behavior is restricted only to the breed of SEOs or to a larger band of professionals, who are in the knowledge workforce of the day. I have seen such erratic and irresponsible reactions across different profiles.

2. At a fundamental level, it has probably been largely a question of the demand-supply skew. In whichever profile that we saw demand largely outstripping the supply, strange patterns followed. Be it unusually high compensation packages (which do not really 'pay back' but still have to be paid just to find a person for the role) or employees jumping jobs frequently, and jumping their salary levels also, each time. The reason why this happens is that employers, thirsty for people, are willing to keep all these aside, and still offer such candidates a job. Recognizing the instability of the person, or the fact that in jumping jobs so frequently, the person has not really got the growth of knowledge that one would expect. Still as long as he can take my long vacant chair, let him come!

3. The SEO practice is a different challenge. For one, there aren't any good training centers imparting specific knowledge and skills. There are some wannabe centers but I have largely been unimpressed by the people that I have seen from such places. So its pretty much a set of skills that one picks up, working at a place, with others, who hopefully know some more. That's not a structured methodology of learning a new skill, so in most cases, there is a lot of half baked knowledge. And worst of all, that half baked knowledge keeps passing on further, creating a whole breed of people who are ill equipped to handle the responsibility of their profession.
Too often you also find people who have picked up some typical "formula stuff". These are not people who used computers from say, class VII at least. These are people who graduated and then took up computers as a subject or as an area of focus, to get a job. One can perhaps learn a programming language in this manner, but SEO work is so far more intuitive that it needs someone to have worked extensively on a computer and on the Internet, to "get it". And which breed is not found easily. The formulae that some of these guys pick up are so hollow that they cannot deliver any serious results, finally.
Most importantly, the SEO training is a moving target. It never gets done. Unlike a programming language where you may still know the technology upto a certain version, even if you have not upgraded yourself, in being an SEO, if you are not totally and completely tuned in to the developments that are a-happening, your knowledge can so quickly become obsolete. Moreover if you keep trying old knowledge, you could easily cause harm to the site that you are trying to promote!! Another major hiccup is that every SEO or so-called SEO participates in forums. Many of them write blogs, which of course, manage to get good search engine placements. And yet all that is written is a matter of personal opinion. Unfortunately, many new SEOs refer to such postings and assume that these are tricks given by Google themselves. So again, mistakes get perpetuated.

There are no easy answers and no quick fixes, I am afraid, Gayatri.

To talk about shocking behavior, I can share an example of not a junior SEO, but a senior person in the core management team, who, after a 5 years stint, decided to take up an alternate offer that came his way, and gave us a final notice period of 5 days! He was heading a profit center independently. When that kind of thing can happen, I look at the SEO flight far more philosophically :)

- Sanjay

posted October 13, 2008

It's just the other side of the coin. While the Indian markets are being blessed with ambitious, energetic, and creative workforce, the other side of it is very evident. Attrition comes with expanding markets and we will continue to see it until people realize that it does not work that way.

While the best reason to leave an organization is when you feel you reached the peak in your career and there is nothing new that the company can offer you, we do see people jumping one wagon to another for raise in salary or designation (which are important but should ideally be the by products of a career move). Little do they realize that this does not help because you are moving with little or no learning. There can be exceptions though, where a candidate might have made a wrong career move. Like someone in the group quoted, 'this is not just limited to SEO professionals.' We will be surprised to see an alarming rate of a similar trend in other industries.

Having said that, the way that I like to look at this situation is 'are we doing it the right way?' If a new hire is moving away from us, is it time we look at ourselves before saying "they are being unprofessional." For instance, if I need to hire a person for my team, I am clear about two things:
~ Ensure that I am hiring the right candidate, not just by his experience in the role, but by the interest that he has in the role being offered. Place more emphasis on his teamwork/spirit and attitude more than on his tenth class marks.
~ Give him an environment where he feels he is running his own business. Empower him to make decisions, while you be a leader in true sense. Step up to take the blame when he fails and give credit to the work he does. Show him he can be your boss and you are okay with it.

Does this sound difficult or close to impossible? At the outset we want to ridicule such an approach, but it is easy to implement and, suprisingly, it always works. So the key being, are you willing to change, are you willing to learn, and more importantly, are you doing the right thing, the right way.

posted October 13, 2008

Hi Gayatri and all others who have commented on this!

You all seem to be sailing in the same boat and have faced similar problems due to irresponsible behaviors from SEO professional in your companies.

Would it not be appropriate to get rid of such situations permanently? That’s exactly you all want, correct me if I am wrong.

I can only suggest one solution that you can see yourself out of such situation, if you don’t have to manage any SEO staff of your own.

Simply outsource to a professional SEO/SEM company like Olive.

Regards

Alok
www.oliveglobal.com
www.jumphigherglobal.com

Links:

• http://www.oliveglobal.com
• http://www.jumphigherglobal.com

posted October 13, 2008

It's just a function of the massive expansion of the SEO sector. Demand hugely outstrips supply, so SEO types are almost always able to find a better deal elsewhere. If you want to improve retention, you have to make your company a really compelling place to work, which probably means paying big salaries, and / or offering other benefits and perks that keep an SEOs attention

You've got to bear in mind that a lot of SEO types will eventually realise they can make more money working for themselves than for any employer, so the work environment has got to make them *really* want to go into the office in a morning, because it offers them something more than just the money, and a better experience than working alone

posted October 13, 2008

Gayatri,

With the expanding demand for SEO and SEM professionals, as in any other field, there is always going to be competition for salary, positions, etc... Make your company/positions highly desirable and you will attract the right candidates. Moving forward, require your candidates to be certified or look for a SEM/SEO agency with a strong portfolio. Also, utilize a personality test to evaluate potential candidates to determine if they fit in with your company before you hire them.

Regards,

Jessica

posted October 13, 2008

I found the same thing in sales, many people just aren't that good at what they do.

I think the SEO industry has another more basic problem -- this is almost exclusively a "self learned" subject and there are very few people that really know their stuff in the first place. This means that most of the junior people probably don't really know very much.

I know that many web developers add SEO to their expertise and my experience has been they typically don't even know the basics.

I have looked at tons of websites where there was a reference to SEO having been done and found that even the simple onsite stuff such as tages and keywords was none existent.

It is a young industry and there are a lot of people that think they know a lot more than they actually do.

posted October 13, 2008

As a former project manager at a SEO company I would agree with most of the issues raised especially the demand. The demand for SEO services is expanding rapidly and if you had a good sales staff like we did then we got nailed with a production load.

Since I have freelanced some work I've found that taking fewer customers even on the side has allowed for better customer service however that is not the core of a sales person who wants to sell more more more, faster faster faster.

Third the fustration I felt was when we would tell a customer something and they would come up with "their idea" which was the same idea the last 30 website owners had, this isn't just with SEO but with a lot of service based organizations. You just get some customers who think this is the magic pill that can solve all your problems.

It's not it's just the beginning.

posted October 13, 2008

Gayatri,
I am impressed with the depth of answers - there's much truth in what has been answered already. Having been in our industry for 14 years, and having recently opened my own company after working at another firm the past 2.5 years, I know for me to call myself "professional", I had to give careful weight to my motives, my planning and my intentions before making the switch.

When I did, I had a heart to heart talk with the boss and the CTO. I explained why I wanted to make the move, and when they first thought "he's leaving us high and dry", I replied - no - actually - I was hoping that this would be a win-win situation- that though I was leaving, I would like to continue to offer my services to them part time ongoing, just as an outside consultant.

Now mind you - if I were new, or only had a few months there, I'd expect they would have laughed at me. Fortunately, I had contributed greatly over the past couple years to the company's growth - with passion, and my services were greatly appreciated. So they accepted joyfully. Another reason is that they too have been around 14 years and had a number of previous employees leave to do similar things with similar consulting arrangements afterward. Every worker who on the other hand has ever jumped ship prematurely - well - that comes down to what I believe the root cause of that issue is.

Arrogant self-centered ego driven people will tend to only look out for their own interests. Honestly - in the work force, it's expected that a worker should give two weeks or more notice when leaving a company. Yet (at least hear in America) for decades now, when companies move out of state (to hire lower wage workers) or close a division, or dismiss employees, they most often give NO notice - and don't tell the employees until at the end of a work week - at the end of the last day of that week.

So it's a big problem due to both sides of the coin. I really like the concept of working on your own company culture to foster an environment of opportunity, let workers know they are well appreciated, yet also tie bonuses and advancement opportunity to loyalty. Drive the vision of the dynamic start-up culture (we're all working for a common goal in which we will all benefit more than most would at big corporations), and know that at the end of the day, anyone who disrespects the employer they abandon is absolutely not a "professional".

posted October 14, 2008

Yup,. its the supply and demand situation and it's not limited to just SEOs. A friend runs a HR firm and they were recruiting field executives for a retail loan company. Guys turned up in shorts ("A friend said there is an interview so I came to check it out!") and their first question was "Whats the salary?"!!

The added problem in the SEO field is the 'art' factor. SEO is more art than a structured methodology that gives bullet proof results if done right. IMO those job hopping are unsure about the art part and hence are more focused on their next jump up the ladder than gaining experience and deepening their skills.

posted October 14, 2008

Gayatri,

When interviewing these SEO candidates, have them point to several websites/clients that they have optimized and for which KW/KPs. Abey is correct that a lot of "professionals" hide behind the "art" aspect of SEO, using it to their advantage to mask their own inabilities. SEO is all about visibility and performance. If they cannot show several instances of sites that rank high, move on to the next candidate. Do not accept excuses that their sites don't rank high anymore because the algorithim has changed. Sites that are optimized correctly can/do withstand day to day shifts.

Jay Lohmann

Links:

• http://www.TheFreelanceNation.com
• http://www.TagTeamCreative.com
• http://www.IncitePRP.com

posted October 14, 2008

Hi,

I'm in a different market than most of the members. I practice SEO/SEM from my desk in Australia. But I can see some of the same characteristics in others here.
I think a lot of it has to do with perceptions, and the "professionals" buying into their own hype.
I still hear "My 12-year old knows computers better than I do." even from businesspeople.
The reverse side of that attitude is the 12-year old gets to thinking s/he really does know more than anyone else when s/he grows up.

Another key factor is working for a large or small company.

Years ago, I met a guy who ran a marketing company out of his basement in New York. It was a one man operation. He had a few mid-sized clients and one or two large clients. Usually, his days were varied, but he spent a minimum of 4 hours working every day.
I was young, and I figured he had good connections and was essentially a charity case for his larger clients.
Until one day I looked at his balance sheet: the guy was pulling in 6-figures! - and this was in the early 1980's.

Large companies are constantly in competition with each other for quality or performing staff.
Clients sign on with the company or program, not a person.
For some levels of business, that's fine. All they need is traffic. Basic SEO builds into the rest of their marketing. This sort of stuff is essentially a checklist, and anyone can do it.
It's astounding how quickly a little SEO can improve the positioning of a website.

But when a small or medium sized business needs to compete against larger competitors, they need more than traffic.They need help developing a community, establishing their expertise, and generating interest in their company.
To accomplish those things, it takes some personal attention to understand the business and its market. (Experience in the field is better, but that is too rare.) That means research, communication, and a commitment to the whole SEM process which can easily require more than a year.

These people who are jumping from job to job are not only doing their customers a disservice, at best a limited service, but are missing out on a tremendous opportunity to widen their understanding of business and people.

posted October 14, 2008

I think the major reason is that there is great demand for them and they know that since there is a dearth of experts they can have it their way. Also since there is no instant measurability of the services provided by these professionals in the development of a site, there are a lot of pseudo experts emerging in the field.

posted October 15, 2008

Hi Gayatri :-)

I'm not sure which "leading search company's" SEO person you've been interviewing :-)

Here's my take on the issue - in India at least.

Frankly, SEO is dying as a business around the world. There will be companies that vociferously deny it, but I see no other explanation for the decline in revenues and standards globally. One reason for this is revenue model suicide - you can't build a great SEO company without getting paid well - and when you have to compete on a flat-fee basis with firms that charge 1/10th as much as you do.

Speaking specifically of India, there are companies that now offer commoditised SEO services (Gold / Silver / Bronze packages etc.) to global clients for as little as $500 / $300 / $200 a month. One such company proudly boasts that it handles 350 - 500 clients at a time.

It boggles my mind how one can effectively do on-page and off-page SEO for 500 companies at a time with a two-digit number of staff.

With this, what has happened is that the people who work in such companies typically aren't trained well - and they get BPO-like low salaries. To make their ends meet, these folks further outsource their time (using eLance etc.) to direct clients around the world - where even a $500 a month engagement can triple a Indian SEO person's take-home pay.

With all this, very few SEO people (in India at least) see their profession as a long-term career. It is a kind of wild-west place, where you are as good as the last client you have conned into working for you - or the last project you ahave managed to bill on.

As one of the larger digital marketing firms in Asia, we have had issues recruiting great SEO people. And we're willing to even recruit the smart ones who can be trained to be great. In our experience: One of our recruits moonlighted offering online SEO training for people around the world on weekends. Another refused to work in a team or work to schedule. A third (from the factory above I mentioned) eventually was found out to have little actual knowledge and later confessed to actually just have done link-building at his previous employer for 50 companies at a time. (Imagine that!)

I think the responsibility lies with companies such as us - the digital marketing firms in India. If we have failed to build a sustainable revenue model in the business, then we have failed to build career paths for our people. And when our people sense that, they tend to work like mavericks, flitting from assignment to assignment at the drop of a penny. Or less, sometimes.

My $0.02,

Mahesh

Links:

• http://www.pinstorm.com

posted October 15, 2008

I would pass on the blame to the hr guys... they are the ones who often call prospective (?) candidates for interviews and are responsible for these quick job changes.

posted October 16, 2008

my 2 cents on this. I have 2 perspectives, one from being an employee and as a consultant.

I think a lot of companies make the mistake of hiring SEO's and SEM's in-house. Unless you are huge company with large sites and/or multiple you probably don't need an SEO.

From an SEM standpoint, if you're budgets are low or just do seasonal buys you probably don't need an in-house person.

The best combo is to hire marketing staff that understand online marketing and have a basic to medium undertanding of SEO and SEM and then outsource the work to a consultant or boutique agency.

Note that I said boutique agency and not just 'agency'. not too long ago I fired a well known and respected agency from my SEM work as they didn't have the expertise....they just had the good brand name and high fees.

I have switched to working consultants and it is going great.

From my consulting business I would say that more and more companies are outsourcing SEO and SEM. The one thing to be careful with from my end is that everything crystal clear with the client....I have event gone to the point of creating SEO and SEM 101 decks and sessions for clients.

Like I said above having internal staff with basic knowledge of SEO and SEM is crucial otherwise many things can go wrong.

One example, we met with the mktg manager outlined in a report what were going to do (SEO) on the site and everytime we said "do you have any questions" or "does everything make sense" the client said yes.

We did the work and then the client came back saying 'why isn't this done?". They were talking about Page Titles....We're like, they're done and we showed them.....they were expecting the on-page title or heading to be done.

So long story short, hr should hire people that have understanding of SEO and SEM and consider outsourcing SEO and SEM efforts to consultants and/or boutique agencies.

posted October 17, 2008