Unions are they good for a People? Do they pay Taxes? Business or Association? Who are they good for?
In the spirit of the "Linkedin" experts requirements and restrictions:
1. Are Unions Good for Business?
2. Do Unions Pay Taxes?
3. Are Unions For People or for Poltiicans?
4. How many Unions actually make Individuals Millionaires? Or just Unions Bosses?
5. Do unions use scare tactics like CAlifornia does? If you are a liberal then business as usual - but Conservatives be damned?
6. Do Uniions support Hollywood?
7. Do Unions support Socialism and Commuism?
Would you join a Union?
Answers (16)
Al M
Computer Professional in IBM Midrange
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If a company treats their employees in a fair and equitable manner, people have no need for a union. Many companies are perceived to do no such thing, and there is a perception that a union can help fix that.
Unions generally increase the cost of doing business.
Unions and taxes, I am not sure if they are considered to be Non-Profit Organizations.
Unions are for workers, but do support some politicians, that support the union platforms.
Unions and Companies and Governments do not make individuals millionaires, except for people at the very top.
Scare tactics are used by unions, companies, politicians.
Some unions and some of Hollywood have mutual support.
Bear in mind that the WORKERS of Hollywood and news media are usually unionized, while the OWNERS and MANAGERS of Hollywood and news media are not in the Unions.
Unions do not support Socialism or Communism except in the minds eye of people who hate unions.
I have never been at a company where my job was covered by unionization.
Clarification added 2 months ago:
During the last union strike at a place where I worked, a group of the workers, who were opposed to the violence, tried to form a second union to protect themselves from the first union.
Mary M
Owner, Riverbend Taxi-- follow on twitter@riverbendtaxi
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Who are Unions good for? Union bosses.
They are neither for people or politicians, they are for union bosses.
Unions used to be a wonderful thing, they ensured safe working conditions, good healthcare, and decent wages. But, power corrupts, and so went the union bosses.
FYI unions don't care if your a liberal or conservative, they go with whomever takes the bribe- and both parties are feeding at the bribe trough. Neither Liberals or Conservatives have clean hands.
Leonid L
Software Engineer at Linedata Services
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Milton Freeman talked about that in Capitalism and Freedom - unions are just bad. Recently in MA there was a boycott of a hotel backed by the governor - such madness!
Wallace J
Multimedia Producer and i3D Programmer for Acrobat 3D PDF, JavaFX, Mobile & Virtual Worlds
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1. No
2. Yes
3. Latter
4. Zero
5. Yes
6. Some
7. Few
8. No
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What a great question to answer in such a time in our country while trying to operate a company. I have worked for a union shop on two occassions early in my career. Both were in New Jersey back in the early to mid 1970's.
The thing I learned then and believe even more strongly now is.....unions are in existence and or business for one thing and one thing only. That is to make as much money as they can. They do that with any means possible. They could care less for the worker. The more money than can negoitiate for the workers means more money for them.
Unouns did serve a purpose back in the in the 1920-1930's era.
The money that they make usually pads the very top exec's and is used to lobby the poloticians.
Although, we are discussing unions primarily in manufacturing. The absolute most corrupt unions that have the greatest impact on our country are the NEA and any other public school teachers union.
The UAW has destroyed U.S. automakers. Why do you think Obama was quick to take over GM & Chrysler. Union votes mean Democrat votes.
Ford just posted a $1 billion profit. So what does their union want to do? Re-negotiate so that Ford has to go to Obama for $$$.
Do I like unions? Think not.
Eric E
Owner, e-Edies Incorporated
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Hey Jan,
Depends I guess on who or whom your asking. As already stated if companies treated their employees fairly...you would never see a union shop set-up...but thats not the norm anymore. Most businesses sold out their workers and moved their shops to China....so much for doing the right thing.
The old adage of if you take care of your employees during the good times...they will get you through the rough times like right now...flew out the window. Very few employees are loyal to most businesses and why should they be with downsizing, lay-offs, pay freezes while the top guys are paid their bonuses....go figure.
The businesses that are going to survive the storm are the ones that take care of their employees whether they are unionized or not. I am neither pro or against unions and I think there is a place for everything.
Susan S
Oppenheimer & Co. Inc., financial marketing writer.
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I really think it depends on the time and circumstances. The medieval guilds could well be considered unions. They regulated their members, set standards for quality and apprenticeships and provided a sort of community. When Samuel Gompers started forging unions (starting with the cigar-cutters), it was between that and sweatshops.
If you cannot trust a company to provide humane working conditions, you do need some sort of mediation. If the union interferes with the operation of the business in a stupid way, or prices its members out of the market, you need to reconsider.
If management is humane, perhaps you don't need it. If management has created brutal working conditions, or if it tries union-busting tactics, maybe not.
I think you have to look at these things on a case-by-case basis.
Wasn't Ronald Reagan once head of a union?
Domenico F
Operative Member of the Managing Board at
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1. No, they are not enterprises. In the communities there are a lot of associations/clubs/ teams having different goals then doing business.
2. I hope they have the same obligations like other Associations (NRA for example, or other professional associations like SHRM, or sector like as Health Insurances). Any case it's matter of local law, the voters can change any time.
3. Unions' reason why is to support own enlisted people. They can try to use Political links to lobby their associates' interest, like many other Associations (I suppose NRA and Helth Insurances similarly do it on a regular basis)
4. see point 1: nobody, as they don't make business. regarding Union Bosses economical situation, I don't know other country practices. In my country salary of Union Responsibles are public and aligned to average of industry middle managers.
5. I don't know you US specific reference. Any case, if I well understand your question: well "hard tactics" are no more used in my country from 80'. Of course "social confrontion" temperature any case depends from all involved parties attitude to collaborate to cope with possible difficult situations... Regarding second part of your question, my experience shows that the unions behave in the same way, no matter if you are liberal/ conservative/ leftist/ rightist/bad boy/good boy and so on, if you close sites, lay off people, tray to reduce treatments without any negotiation or sometime early communication and so on.
6. I don't know Hollywood, any case in my country unions have a lot of troubles with cinema/TV world as here the jobs are low wage/ short term (of course I'm not speaking about Sofia Loren and other players at her level (:-)
7. Strange question. Here we have also unions that gather people having conservative political views. Newly, they don't behave differently in case of site closing, lay offs and so on. Of course I can expect they have different focus during lobbying vs politicians to influence some law voting.
When I was employee I joined.
Now I'm a manager and I joined.
If, in the near future, I'll become an owner or a free lance professional, well in these cases too there are Associations having "union similar" scopes for enlisted people, and I will join them.
In the meantime I'm SHRM enlisted and also enlisted to ex Army Officer Association.
My 2 cents
Domenico
I think we are seeing a pendulum affect. Unions were formed to protect the inhumane treatment to its workforce, however as power increases unions have exceeded that point and dictate to management. I have talked with people who said they did not work for X company but the union. I have seen them go to extremes to protect those who should rightfully loose their employment. We never strike to find middle ground we always seem to go to extremes and therfore we are always correcting course to head where we should have gone in the first place.
Clarification added 1 month ago:
Only under extreme circumstances would I consider to join, my general attitude I would seek other employment.
You need to view the Union-Employer relationship on a one by one basis. Union troubles come in many forms. Historically unions came about because employers paid scant regard to workers health and safety in the workplace. Just have a look back at historical data on fatalities in the workplace.
They grew because of a resistance to change by the employers at the time and there was almost a civil war as a result. In truth, the unions were the good guys, while the employer treated them as a disposable asset.
Over time, employers gave way and governments began to legislate for workers rights. In time a kind of cold war stand off developed. For many employers, this was an opportunity to change the way they dealt with their workers. The concept of leadership and recognition of the individual came about.
New business set up without the need for a unionised workforce, while older institutionalised industries and services were slower to change and the power struggle remained. Nowadays, many unionised work environments have a strong and positive relationship between management and unions and they work together for the benefit of the worker and the organisation on a shared benefit basis.
In other environments, outmoded workpractices and weaker management and direction have ensured that the trust divide still exists. The powerplay is between dogmatic bosses and intransigent union leaders. The workers are caught in the middle often not knowing who to trust.
In most cases a difficult unionised environment is the fault of management. They have failed to earn the respect and trust of their workers. However, like many historical conflicts, animosities die slowly and each side continues to give their oponents cause to exist.
I remember someone asking me as an Irishman, why Ian Paisley was never assasinated by the IRA at the height of the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland. It was said that Ian Paisley was the IRA's most important asset. His loud beligerence drove recruits into the arms of the IRA.
How many managers out there are in the same role, recruiters for the unions. Of course, there are also lessons for foreign policy. Heavy handed blundering in the fight against terrorism creates martyrs and a groundswell of support for the terrorists.
As we often say in Ireland as a lesson of our own history, a terrorist is just the guys who didn't win the war. Terrorism is usually a tactic used by little guys against much bigger guys. The Irish Republic, Israel, India and many other countries owe their existence to terrorism, even the US used some terrorist tactics in their war of independence.
In the union context, strikes are often their only weapon of impact. Go-slows and work to rule can be overcome by a determined management. The best solution is always to talk, to understand first, before you make yourself be understood.
If unions are a problem, look at yourself first before you seek to throw the blame. In Ireland our Public Sector Unions are planning to hold the country to ransom, but they are only doing that because the sector was so badly managed over recent decades.
I'm not anti union, but I'm all for having competent management that negates the need for a union.
No union that I know of supports communism, but all are socialist, which is no bad thing in my opinion. You see, every force requires an equal and opposite force to keep it in check. Rampant capitalism (the cause of the current worldwide economic crisis) is kept in check by socialist ideals, in hte same way as moderate capitalism and good management defeated communism in the soviet bloc. And remember, the vast majority of unions are not anti profit and growth, they are just against inequity and injustice.
Again, where you have unions, you have bad management!
Clarification added 1 month ago:
Some interesting points raised in further discussion. Seems like US Unions have embrased Capitalism with the enthusiasm of the Mafia. That seems to be a Federal Legislation issue. There is a freedom to associate, perhaps there is a need to enshrine a freedom to disassociate and also a need to regulate their activities.
Greed is a factor that gets Capitalism a bad name. Someone once said that it was the difference between capitalism and socialism. But some recent revelations in the financial collapse suggests that greed may be driven by something else. I believe that there has been a rise in the numbers of sociopaths, or psychopaths at senior decision-making levels is these. There are many hallmarks of these types in operation. In particular I would refer to the decisions made without regard to the consequences to the little guy. Senior management levels have a disproportionate percentage of thses people. I would imagine that Union leaders are much the same.
Quite often Union activists are just "managers" who never got the education or the breaks or had the social upbringing that would have pointed them in that direction. I know of several situations where strong and troublesome activists have been turned into effective managers. Indeed, most of Ireland's first generation of Personnel and HR managers came from Union backgrounds. Including my father, who went on to Director level in Ireland's largest media company.
I don't know who said it first but the quote sticks in my mind; "Seek first to understand, then to be understood". Makes a lot of sense where unions are concerned.
Bart K
President at Kemper Engineering Services, LLC
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Overall comment on the "where you have unions, you have bad management." That is not correct. In many areas you have jobs that are mandated to be union, so if you start a new business it will have union labor. Therefore, "management" never had a chance to set up any condition other than as dictated by the union. In such areas, the free market puts pressure to have those jobs elsewhere.
In some cases, such as large plants, the unionized work force is just an assumption they have learned to base their business model on. From what I've seen from a distance for non-auto plants, its a fairly decent arrangement as the line workers do need some leverage....but I think its best in a "right to work" state where unions are not mandatory to work. The unions still have power...but if the unions price themselves out of the market then the business has a clear option. In smaller businesses, its usually a less than optimal fit.
We are many generations past the formation of unions as well as at least a 10-20 years past where there was a view of "company loyalty" as a norm, either by the company or especially by the employees. In the here and now of employment, big companies and employees enter into employment relationships assuming niether party is going to be loyal without cause, and even then its suspect.
And yes, in the US the unions still br threaten non-union employees, engage in vandalism to make a point, and try to make as much money as possible. Outside of california unions tend to be fairly conservative, at least socially. I don't think the liberal/conservative labels fit well in this case, its just "labor" vs "management".
Bob M
Owner, R. W. Miller Jr. & Associates, Human Resource Consulting
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1. Are Unions Good for Business? Generally no - but there are some business owners that are not good for business.
2. Do Unions Pay Taxes? I believe as an association they do not pay taxes. Their employees do. Unions spend a large percentage of union dues supporting politicians.
3. Are Unions For People or for Politicians? Fundamentally they are for people. Currently politicians can't force a union on you, but they are trying to pass Employee Free Choice Act, which may be their way to force unions on you.
5. Do unions use scare tactics like California does? If you are a liberal then business as usual - but Conservatives be damned? Some do - some don't.
The funniest thing I read about just recently - union employees picketing their union headquarters, because the union had laid off some union employees due to the downturn in the economy.
Would you join a Union? No.
Visit my latest blog about what employers should be doing in preparation for the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) AKA Card Check Act. http://www.humanresourcesource.com/blog/
Scott B
Author at Dooley Downs
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This is such a broad topic, as there are many different types of unions.
1) They can be. Some unions support trades and craftsmen, which attract a certain set of skilled labor. Talent is good for business. Also, they are in a large sense responsible for the working conditions we have today. A responsible and safe business is good for business. A good union is designed so that the worker and the business both win.
2) I'm not entirely sure about this, but indirectly they do. Higher wage standards contribute to a higher tax base.
3) Both. Again, depending on the union and its leaders. A union is an organization of people, so depending on that organizations leaders and their ethics you will have vast variation, just like coporations.
4) This question seems irrelevant to me, since it is not the purpose of unions to make millionaires. I am sure in some unions it is similar to corporations, in that the head person is politically connected and disproportionally compensated.
5) Some do; some don't. It depends on the nature and agenda of the union. The liberal/conservative reference is lost on me.
6) Some do, for instance The Actor's Guild, and others. Support for workers in an industry can help that industry, if done responsibly and in the spirit of collaboration.
7) I'm not of the mind that a union's purpose is to support or advance a political philosophy, though I'm sure some do. Most unions are a support mechanism for labor. Promoting safe and sound working conditions, fair pay, good incentives all contribute to a motivated work force. A business can do this on their own, without a union. But the freedom to organize a work force as a collective bargaining unit is a good freedom to have.
Would I join a union? I don't currently need to, but I like the idea that I can if I want to.
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Dave M
Phoenix Signs where our signs put more dollar signs into your business!
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1. Are Unions Good for Business? It is not their intent to be good for business but rather good for the workers in business (or at least that is the stated purpose)
2. Do Unions Pay Taxes? No
3. Are Unions For People or for Poltiicans? For people but Unions provide financial backing for politicians that champion their cause
4. How many Unions actually make Individuals Millionaires? Or just Unions Bosses? Union labor can make millionaires of business owners but so can non-union labor. If anyone else becomes a millionaire because of a union, it would be wrong.
5. Do unions use scare tactics like CAlifornia does? If you are a liberal then business as usual - but Conservatives be damned? Both Unions and Management use and have used scare tactics.
6. Do Uniions support Hollywood? You betcha
7. Do Unions support Socialism and Commuism? Don't know.
Would I join a Union? No
Barrett P
C.P.A., Senior Financial Executive in Accounting, Finance and Treasury, IT, M&A, and Management Consulting Professional
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Unions are most likely to "flourish" when organizations treat employees in a calloused, indifferent, or parimonious way. Reasonably enlightened and friendly organizations will have less - but not always none - difficulty. Unions do not generally pay taxes, except for certain circumstances. Unions tend to be most for unions, as an entity, and for members to some degree in their early years before they calcify. Unions, like companies play with politicians, particularly with cash or election support. Unions will not likely make any millionaires except certain union leaders. Unions use scare tactics, as do businesses, politicians, liberals, and conservatives, among others. Unions tend to support those who can provide support and/or publicity, including Holloywood. Unions support those who will advance their interests but in the Us do not particularly support socialism or communism except in the vivid and overheated imagination of certain acutely conservative types. I would not care to join a union, but was a reluctant member as a teenager - a long time ago -because it suited my economic interests.
Barrett Peterson, CPA
Rich D
Professional Pump-Em-Upper; Keynotes & Training
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The good news is that more and more union delegates are recognizing that the union model is old and archaic and needs to change. I had a recent opportunity to spend a day working with a large union and it is clear that they are no longer interested in protecting the slackers, lazy, liars, cheats and those that pull race and gender cards on a regular basis. They are interested in getting their members re-engaged in their work and the industries they serve.
So I think this answer is complex and the answers to your questions will be different very soon. There is a movement to change the model. I guess it also helps that unions are being broken and forced to give back more and more these days - and are doing so. So who knows what the new model will look like and what it will bring. Stay tuned.............
